Katherine Spiers ('00)
Reinventing Food Journalism
Christian Fulghum (’77):
Tell me what you're doing right now, Katherine.
Katherine:
About a year and a half ago...well, coming up on two years, I started a podcast network and production company, which means that I both produce podcasts and we send them out on network. And I started doing that because I had been a print journalist. And when I say print, I mean online. I feel like it's the same thing, for my entire career. And most recently, I had gotten laid off from LA Weekly when new owners came in and fired everyone. And I thought, "Okay, I'm done being a journalist for other people. I'm going to be a journalist for myself."
I started my own company. I have my own podcast, which predates the podcast company. And so I just combined forces with a former public television coworker of mine, who also had a podcast and now we are in production on seven podcasts.
Christian:
Is that one or two more podcasts than a year ago? Sounds like you've added.
Katherine:
Yeah. Well, three of them aren't airing yet. They will be very soon, hopefully. I think we started with three. We're just building slowly and that's another thing, we haven't taken in any outside funding because we want to be our own bosses. That's a huge part of why we started doing this. And it also allows us to grow very slowly, which is really helpful because we want to make thoughtful decisions.
Christian:
That sounds like what Seth Godin calls, "Build your tribe." And once you've got your tribe, you're in a way stronger position. Even if you do choose to accept outside money, you've got more leverage.
Katherine:
Yeah. And we definitely were very mindful of that because we obviously can see tech bubbles all around us. My business partner is the same age as I. We graduated in 2000 after having seen a lot of tech explosions and all the tech money but then we've seen every recession since then. I think we're learning from other people's previous mistakes and remembering that you are allowed to have a slow growth business and it's hard in this culture. We have to remind ourselves that just because we're growing slowly, it doesn't mean that we're failures at it because there's a lot of that push still in our culture, to grow exponentially and quickly but I think we're moving away from that as a society.
Christian:
Tell me in any order what you want about the podcast you currently have.
Katherine:
Our goal with the company...well, one of many goals, is to bring more people into the journalism fold than traditionally have been there because it is a very insular industry and there are a lot of barriers to entry. The fact that it's so low paid means that people who have family money generally go into it because they don't need to make their living from being a journalist. The pay is ridiculously low. We want to have a variety of voices in our podcasts. And we essentially want to be a newspaper but in audio form, is what we always say because we want to be covering all the topics.
Having said that, I've always done lifestyle journalism and my business partner has always done entertainment journalism. That's certainly what we're starting with because that's what we know and we're slowly growing into all the other topics but we cover video game music, which is extremely niche, so of course, beloved by its listeners. And we also have a show that I love, called Gayest Episode Ever, which looks at vintage sitcoms. Generally, they're very special episodes that dealt with gay issues and it's revisiting them through the lens of today's society. It's really fascinating. And then with my show Smart Mouth, which is food history, these are all easy ways into actual cultural history, which is what we love doing.
Christian:
Oh, that's fantastic. Can you tell me anything about the shows that are under development or the topics or is it top secret still?
Katherine:
No, not top secret. Because of Coronavirus, we're last minute doing one called Happy History with Hadley. At least that's the working title right now. She hosts a history show for us already, called Underbelly. And she's going to add this other show that's just going to be quick happy historical moments, things that actually happened, that were good for the planet. We have one called Small Town Sound, which is a music history podcast and every season's going to take place in a different small city across the country and it explores how cities outside of LA, New York and Nashville were influential to pop music. And our first season is going to be in Long Beach, which is in Los Angeles County, which is where I live. And then we're also working on one called the Trans Vagina Dialogues, which is all about transgender issues and it gets really graphic. And that's by design. It's a new way of talking about transgender issues.
That was another problem with starting your own company, is making hiring decisions and trying to figure out who's going to work. And especially when your work ... TableCakes is a for-profit but we also are a little bit mission-driven, so we're sometimes looking for specific people, "Who can we put again with the slow growth?" We're trying not to feel bad about it.
Christian:
That almost sounds like a B Corporation?
Katherine:
No, we're an LLC.
Christian:
Okay.
Katherine:
We just happen to be bleeding hearts.
Christian:
And obviously, any company that's viable can also donate money or support a cause or the owners can. It's not as if that precludes being community-minded or community-spirited in that regard. Did you have any experience, apart from your journalism experience that led you to take this leap or was it something where you just said, in the true entrepreneur fashion, "I'm going to jump first, and I'll figure out the landing part later?”
Katherine:
Yeah, I'm definitely act first, apologize later type of person. And I think that that definitely influenced how I thought about starting a company. I knew that there was going to be a lot that we didn't know how to do. Again, because my business partner and I essentially have the same brains and we are interested in the same topics and don't know anything about the same topics. It's taken us a while to figure out exactly what we don't know anything about. And so we didn't hire a bookkeeper for about the first year and a half. And then we did and now things are so much easier. Just figuring out where to put our time versus where to put our money, is a big part of it. The boring but essential part of it.
Christian:
Where would you like to be in a couple of years, in terms of the scope of what you're doing? Would it be the same collection of podcasts and just more people listening or subscribing or advertising? And by the way, are you going to go to an advertising model? Are you going to go to subscription model? What's your thinking?
Katherine:
We're doing advertising and subscription right now and Patreon. Basically taking advantage of any possible income source, we're open to. In terms of the future, I know I'd like for us to be doing more shows and paying the hosts better. Those are probably two goals. Of course, one way of paying the host better is by getting lots of advertising dollars, which is predicated on how many listeners you have, generally. Sometimes with some advertisers, they understand that a small audience is fine as long as it's a devoted audience because a devoted audience is going to follow the hosts buying lead more, so it's basically about connecting, getting that money. That said, we do want to grow a big listenership because it's nice if something that you're producing makes a splash, but we really want to just have shows that we're proud of.
We're still in a position right now where we're not desperate for money and so I understand that everything I'm saying right now is pie in the sky. I know that it's really optimistic but it's the hope, right. It's the hope of what happens.
Christian:
It’s easy to start a company, but it is important to know what you don’t know, and get appropriate help.
Katherine:
Yeah, knowing that you don't know very much, but also having the confidence or something to believe that you can get it done anyway. I actually think about that a lot in terms of Overlake because I believe that we were taught to think creatively and we were also taught that we should go after what we want to go after. And I do think we were on that tail end of being told, "If you want to do something, you can do it."
Christian:
In the ‘70s when I was at Overlake, what they had was called “stick your neck out.” Be willing to go try something and fail was what the head of the school at that time was all about and that's been tempered now for sure.
Katherine:
Well, I think in the 90s, at least, it was still, "stick your neck out."
But also, "Failure is not an option."
Christian:
It does seem to me that if you live in America and you have any gumption at all, you ought to try once in your life to make your own company and go through that because even if it's a failure, it's a useful lesson. If it's a success, it's a different lesson, and life goes on.
Katherine:
Yeah. And of course there is some element of privilege there too. Most importantly, financial privilege and everything that comes with that, which I am also extremely aware of. That's something that my business partner and I have going for us.
Christian:
That’s the hand you were dealt. Use it constructively, right. Be conscious but don't fail to appreciate the gifts you were gifted with, I think is a fair thing to say. But to return to the point, it sounds like in a couple of years your hope would be for more listeners and therefore more revenue but at a sustainable rate of growth.
Katherine:
Yeah. We don't need to pepper iTunes with podcasts. We want to do podcasts that we're proud of. And obviously, it would be amazing if we had a smash hit. That would be great. It would be amazing if that smash hit were options into a movie. I'm not going to be above it all at all. I would like to make a ton of money doing this but we we’re gross hippies and we keep coming back to that.
Christian:
Yeah. Well, if you made a ton of money, what would you do with it? I'm asking.
Katherine:
I would own a house and not be stressed out.
Christian:
Ah, okay. I mean a ton of money.
Katherine:
I would own a house, not be stressed out, and give away a lot of it.
Christian:
There you go.
Katherine:
It's so crazy because even being financially privileged, I'm broke because that's what's happening in 2020. Well, if I had an actual ton of money, I hope that I would be generous with it because things are rough for everybody, almost everybody right now.
Christian:
Yeah. Surviving during an epic downturn like this means you are on to something, and that you have both the business model and the management to thrive when things improve.
Katherine:
Hopefully.
Christian:
Okay. Back when you worked for the LA Weekly you were doing online journalism, which even a few years ago, was really just articles posted online. It's what the LA Times or Seattle Times is now.
Katherine:
Well, it worked for a publication. Writing online and writing for print are functionally the same thing.
Christian:
And I guess what I wanted to ask about, is that when you go from doing the interviews you used to do, which were then transcribed and edited into an article, you the writer were keeping yourself out. What you do now is sit down with your guest and talk to them, interact with them live. Thus, you the writer is now part of the product in a way you weren't before. Now you are in the product, so that's an interesting transition you're making there. How's that been for you, as a journalist?
Katherine:
That's been really difficult. I often joke and say that I'm the last of the old school journalists because my mindset has always been that I am not the story, but then I went into broadcasting and even though I have a guest every week and they're always a more famous person than I am, I have to include myself in the conversation and that's something that I really struggled with when I started podcasting because to my mind, I'm not the story. Also, why would anyone want to hear about me, but podcast listeners want to feel like they're friends with podcast hosts. This is an accepted fact now in the industry. Now, I talk about my family history and I talk about my love life and it does not come naturally to me at all, but you got to do it. You can definitely tell the difference between people with a background closer to mine versus our podcast hosts who are also actors, it's a lot easier for them.
Christian:
And yet it's still not quite the same as live radio because you're recording something and then you're doing some editing, correct.
Katherine:
Yeah. It's a lot less stressful because you can edit it out, so you don't have to be afraid of saying anything dumb. It also makes it easier for the guests, whereas if they're not used to live standup or something, it can be nerve-wracking. I always remind them that it's not live and that chills them out.
Christian:
Yeah, very different from television or radio and even long-form radio now, in terms of the relaxation factor and the ability. More like a tape. I guess it's really analogous to a taped long-form radio program from the old days.
Katherine:
Yeah, it's supposed to feel very intimate and homey.
Christian:
How long does it take you once you've completed an interview with one of your chefs, to do the editing necessary to do a program?
Katherine:
Depends on how the conversation flowed. It can take anywhere from an hour to 10 hours but with podcasting, actually most of the work for me comes before the recording, because that's just the style of podcast I do, where I have to bring all the information, they bring the personality. I do all of my research ahead of time. Then we record and then you edit what you've got, but once you sit down to record, I feel that the hard part is done.
Christian:
Right, so you are the research department.
Katherine:
Exactly.
Christian:
Very cool. And are you finding it a little easier now that you've been doing this for a while to get chefs to respond and come on the show?
Katherine:
In a sense, it was easier when I was doing my podcast and working at LA Weekly and with publicists, because I would say, "This is my personal podcast. I'm also the food editor at LA Weekly." And the publicist would only hear LA Weekly. Even though I know what my lessons are, and I feel the publicists should be putting their clients on podcasts before a specific print medium that's essentially dead, it sometimes can be a little bit more of a challenge with the chefs.
Christian:
If you think about Overlake, you touched on it a little bit. Did you write for the school newspaper when you were at Overlake?
Katherine:
I wrote for the school newspaper and I remember going into senior year, Kirsten Thomas (’00) and I both wanted to be editor. And so we split the title somehow. I can't remember what my title was on it but yes, I did write for the school newspaper. I've always known that I wanted to be a journalist.
Christian:
Was it The Independent?
Katherine:
That sounds right. The Overlake Independent.
Christian:
There's been several papers actually. When I wrote for the paper in the ‘70s, it was called the Monte Carlo Bugand it was half straight news and half satire. And it was heavily influenced by the National Lampoon and every month it was, "How far can we go with the cartoons? How far can we go with what we write and not get in trouble?"
We were fortunate to have adult editors who gave us a lot of latitude to be creative and take risks. We got yelled at regularly by the Admin. In those days it was printed on newsprint at North Shore Publishing in Bothell. Tom Hughes (’77) was an excellent photographer, and his dad John was a real newspaper publisher. We would stay up all night while the thing was printed and after we proofed it and everything and bring it to school the next day, having gotten no sleep and then hand it out to everybody.
Katherine:
That sounds like a lot of fun.
Christian:
Yeah, it was really a great ... Steve Hafer was the advisor and provided incredible encouragement. Are there any teachers, looking back on your time at Overlake, whose influence has stayed with you in some way?
Katherine:
Actually a lot. And I can list some, but I don't want anyone to feel left out. David Bennett was incredible and he just somehow spoke to me. I took seventh grade social studies with him and I learned so much about the entire planet taking his class. I think he really introduced us to more than just the Eastside and he was probably doing that on purpose, and he was really good at it. Gretchen Davis was incredible. She taught English.
Christian:
I had her for eighth grade English, if not more than that. She also ran a summer program in Cambridge, in England that I also went to. She was just such a warm person and I think also an extremely good teacher because I remember diagramming sentences and not thinking it was boring. Which is wild.
Katherine:
Sue Haviland, I only had her as a teacher, I think seventh grade math for one year, but she was also my homeroom advisor in Middle School. I went on Project Weeks with her and most importantly, she was my lacrosse coach. And my high school lacrosse team, when I think about it, it remains to this day, I think one of the most important groups of women that I was ever a part of…it had to have been the way that she ran the team because college lacrosse was a huge bummer for me but Overlake lacrosse under Sue Haviland was an amazing experience and more than just a sport.
Christian:
Where did you go to college?
Katherine:
UC Santa Barbara.
Christian:
And in Upper School, were there any English teachers in particular who were influential or anything or beyond what you've already discussed?
Katherine:
I think about Marian Sugano, Ellen Zarter and Emma Alenduff. Those three...and I think Emma taught me history as well. They were just so smart and also good at relaying information, at least to me. I know that I have a humanities brain and I do not have a math brain. In retrospect, I realized how much these teachers did to help me understand and excel. It’s hard to realize until you get out into the post-high school world.
Christian:
Thank you for taking so much of your time with me today, and I hope your collection of podcasts continues to grow and thrive.
Katherine:
Thank you!